Mental Floss is partnering with FilmNation and iHeartPodcasts to convey you the transcripts forGreatest Escapes , a podcast hosted by Arturo Castro about some of the wild escape story across story . In this sequence , Joseph Gordon - Levitt ( Flora and Son , Mr. Corman ) and Arturo examine the distressful trends behind a modern day escape in Dannemora , New York . Read all the transcriptshere .
word of advice : This episode contains discussion of offence that some might find upsetting .
Arturo Castro : This isGreatest Escapes , a show bringing you the baseless true escape account of all time . Now in this episode , we ’re tell the story of two escapee who had a true hang for smuggling puppet into prison house so they could cut their way out . I ’m Arturo Castro , and I ’m joined by a man whose talent on screen and behind the camera has been completely undeniable for 10 , one of my favorite co - whiz of all time , please welcome : Joseph Gordon - Levitt .
It ’s Joseph Gordon Levitt ! “ Brah brah brow ! ”
[ Airhorn sound ]
Joseph Gordon Levitt : Hey human race .
Arturo : Hey .
Joe : Thanks for having me .
Arturo : Of course ! Thanks for being here . And Joe , I got ta recite you , you know , and our interview — you have intercourse this , but you are one of the kindest people I ’ve ever wreak with . And I mean that very sincerely .
Joe : I palpate the same means about you , gentleman .
Arturo : And I ’ll tell you what it is , humanity , that you just like — no matter who it is on set that has a question , you always stop and make time to do it no matter how modest it could be . Like , you know .
Joe : Because I just do it hearing myself answer interrogative , that ’s why .
Arturo : Yeah , yeah , yeah , yeah . If there ’s somebody recording it and a , and a — and an creative person sort of cast , you do it at all prison term , which is unearthly , but I ’ll give you an example . If somebody come over and they ’re like , “ Hey , so yeah , I think I ’m just gon na make those pall blue , ” and you ’re like , “ uh , wait , look . arrest the roll . ”
Joe : No , no .
Arturo : Hmm . OK . So I need to demand you , even though it ’s kind of a — a hard question to take while being modest , but , you know , being in films for as long as you ’ve been and still , um , being such a well adjusted human being , what , um — what do you attribute that to ? How you ’ve sort of maintain your nous straight all these years ?
Joe : That ’s , I have in mind , so flattering that you would necessitate me that . Um , I intend , it ’s a pretty simple answer . I think I mother real lucky with the parents I got and , you know , that ’s , that ’s not my doing that — we all just roll dice and get who we get . And my parents were never very enchanted with all of the poisonous accouterment that can come along with show stage business . I ’ve , you know , I ’ve been working in — acting in stuff since I was 6 years old and my parent always just hear that I screw doing it . But anytime I did n’t want to do it , if I , like , did n’t experience like blend on an auditory sense that twenty-four hour period or something , my mom would always say , and very truly , “ calculate , you really do n’t have to do this . We ’ll , you get it on , we ’ll be so in love with you and proud of you no matter what you do . ”
Arturo : Wow .
Joe:“You did commit to this thing today – ”
Arturo : Right .
Joe:“–and it ’s important that you honor your consignment . So have ’s go today , but if you — after that , if you do n’t want to do this , you , you never have to do this . ”
Joe : And , um , I think it’s — it ’s more plebeian that people finger force per unit area to do it .
Arturo : Of naturally .
Joe : And , and that can be the beginning of the — I do n’t fuck .
Arturo : Yes , “ of the end . ” Say it .
Joe:[Laughs ]
Joe’s Escape
Arturo : Let me ask you something . What do you consider to be your greatest escape ?
Joe : Yeah , well , I , I — aboveboard , I guess what we did escaping the pandemic to New Zealand , and I feel half bad , you know , saying this ’cause it was such a privilege to get to do it , but that was an incredible escape .
Arturo : So amazing .
Joe : And just to tell the brief translation of the story , you get it on , we were blast this show , Mr. Corman , that I ’d been , you know , render to put together for year — it ’s my sister . We ’re three weeks into the shoot in March of 2020 when — when the whole humans shut down . We have to stop along with everybody else and we were stress to get the yield back up . Everyone was running around trying to figure out how to pullulate during the pandemic .
Joe : And the unfearing producers over at A24 call me and said , “ would you ever study drop a lot of meter in New Zealand ? ” And I was — I mean , I — I felt like I won the lottery .
Arturo : Yeah .
Joe : I had been fan — I literally , not exaggerating , my married woman and I had been fantasizing . We had been abide up at night looking at Google Maps street opinion of New Zealand –
Arturo : Wow
Joe:–picking where we want to be , just because it sound like such a dream to be out of the pandemic . And , you know , there was no Covid there at the time . And , and then we got to go , and I remember — and [ I ] set out to bring my family and we spend [ a ] time there and — a farseeing time — and , and I retrieve when we arrive there , my older boy who at the time was I cogitate 5 , we catch off the plane in the the airport in Wellington and no one was wearing masks . And we find off and we take off our mask and my son goes , “ we ’re out of the pandemic ! ” And I was like , yep , that ’s exactly what happens . Leave it to a 5 twelvemonth quondam .
Arturo : But it was an leakage , right ? It was just like , we were able to — I remember I would post narrative or I send my friends videos of like just shopping at a grocery store without a mask . And it was like , the biggest flex in the world .
OK , so are we quick to get into this ? Do you need to get word some crazy escape ?
Joe : I wanna listen this story . I — I have it away storytelling , so I ca n’t wait .
Arturo : I’m gon na remove ya .
CHAPTER 1: Two Bros Diverge
Arturo : It ’s the summertime of 2015 , and we begin in a distant hunt cabin in upstate New York . The rooms are sorry , quiet , mouldy . The cabin is empty . Footsteps approach . Crunch crush . I ’m not gon na do my own sound effects … Two valet come to the threshold . They essay the grip . Their silhouette loom in the window . They squeeze their way at heart . Yes , it ’s a intermission in . The men are looking middling rough . They ’ve been trek through the woods near the Canadian border , live on off the state , and carrying their supplies in a baste guitar case .
Joe : A guitar case ?
Arturo : A guitar case .
Joe : So they didn’t — they did n’t mean to go last in the wild as they ’re carrying a guitar case .
Arturo : Well , no , they did n’t . This was n’t part of their design . They have ragged name tatter . They ’re still sewn into their wear . It’s — they’re called David and Richard .
Joe : Name tags ? What , like TGI — TGIF waiters or something ? What ?
Arturo : Yes , yes . They both figure out — they work at Applebee ’s , and this is just some crazy turn of events of events . They are now in the woods . So they ’re in this gruff cabin in the woods , and it ’s a gold mine . They rummaged through the cabinets and dresser . Do you have any guess what they ’re gon na find there , Joe ?
Joe : I have in mind , food , water supply , I do n’t know . Like , Nintendo ?
Arturo : A TGI Friday ’s store ! They discover a full - on — so they open up up a in full stock pantry and set about to banquet , but even better , they happen a nursing bottle of moonshine and a propane heater , and they also find plenty of choice weed . So while one of them sleeps — span up the crank , the other one grabs a Moon , roll a juncture , and settles on the couch . We get a spotlight from the sweeping guy and he takes a long –
Joe : ruffle cannabis and alcohol . Not my favorite .
Arturo : Not a preferent affair to do . It always seems like a good musical theme . You know , when I was younger , like , you ’re drunk at somebody ’s like “ you require to hit this ? ” and all of a sudden I ’m like , “ yeah . ”
Joe : Just clean one . What variety of evening do you require to have ? blame one .
Arturo : So suddenly , I ’m in the couch , in brain slammer , being like , “ oh man , three age ago I was kind of rude to that barista , I should call them . ” Um , so this is when David and Richard ’s great escape start to go sideways . They were two murderer on the outpouring after an epic prison escape …
Joe : Jesus !
Arturo : … and the law of nature was live on their heels .
Joe : Oh damn .
CHAPTER 2: Right Where You Belong
Arturo : So Joe , get ’s meet these two shady character , OK ?
Joe : OK .
Arturo : Um , we constitute they ’re not actually from TGI Fridays , uh …
Joe : No , they ’re prison house name tags afterall .
Arturo : Uh , precisely . So these guys were uncollectible than fly-by-night . These two guys were cold-blooded - full-blood killers . And so we ’re gon na start with David Sweat .
Joe : Wow .
Arturo : Yeah . So he was have a bun in the oven in 1980 and he grew up in a little town of Deposit , New York . Incidentally , it ’s not known for their deposits . They were all Johnny Cash in hand . Um — but that was such a stupid caper , but I had to get it in there . So by the fourth dimension he was 18 , David had already had a foresightful rap sheet , a lean that included violent attacks and burglaries and car crash to his name .
Joe : What sort of parent did he have ?
Arturo : He did not have bully parents . They all , yes . None of …
Joe : I feel bad for David .
Arturo : They all believed in name tags . That was n’t even a prison thing . They just like — it was just a thing he picked up from youth . So once while he was in prison , a sentry duty found him making a leaning of future crime that he hop to institutionalise one day .
Joe : Whoa !
Arturo : Dude , you got ta look up to the f***ing audaciousness of this insane vision circuit card .
Joe : Is he writing down just like , the existent offenses ? “ I want to perform armed looting — check . I want to perform arson — check . ” Or is he like key out tarradiddle of like , thing he wants ?
Arturo : No , he ’s like , “ I want to charge each and every one of these before my time is done . ” So !
Joe : Oh , he ’s ominous . He’s — he ’s brainsick . He ’s mentally ill .
Arturo : He ’s a unbalanced homo . But when he first got out on parole , David started living out of — out of a camper in the woods in upstate New York . He gathered some ally , uh , like - minded friend , you could say , and they startle boosting railway car from the parking lots of nearby townspeople .
Now , David — sorry , let me enquire you this . Let me go back to this for a moment . Do you trust that some people , even if they ’re not mentally ill , or there ’s not something inherently incorrect with them , do you believe there ’s just some people that are bear cruel or they ’re raise cruel ?
Joe : I mean , roughshod has the value judgement . I — I definitely opine [ there ] are people who are born ominous , and I mean , I ’m no-count to get all serious here . We ’re test to have a fun time telling an relief valve write up , but like , for trusted our existence , particularly our country , does not do a salutary problem of taking care of mentally ill people .
Arturo : A hundred percentage .
Joe : And the fact that someone who ’s clearly , uh , mentally ill has ended up in prison house , that ’s credibly not the ripe space for him . That ’s not gon na assist him , and –
Arturo : And to your point , through , through — throughout these stories that we ’ve been state , a lot of them are prison house escape and nobody , not [ one person ] in any of these stories gets reformed by going to the prison house organisation .
Joe : Exactly . It ’s supposed to be rehabilitation . Well , it’s — it ’s worth note , you do it , in — uh , good-for-naught to get all geeky about this . This is something I ’m quite concerned in .
Arturo : Sure .
Joe : Uh , there ’s a lot of prisons that — they really are private for - profit companies , so it ’s in their interests that they have more prisoners .
Joe : And so , what — what incentive do they have to make certain that their prisoners rehabilitate and get out and go head more healthy , cocksure lives ? They don’t — they have the bonus to take them back . Like any good business , you want your customers to come back –
Joe:–and I do think it’s — it speaks to the variety of bigger value and understanding , and this goes back to the kind of meritocracy myth that we were peach about a bit ago when you asked like , “ Hey , well , how , how did you terminate up so prosperous to be , you experience , a , a happy person ? ” And I — I cerebrate so much of it comes down to circumstances , whether that ’s who your parents are or just the — the physiology in your brain are , are … are all the cylinders firing decent ? Or are some of those cylinders burn in a way that tug you as a young person to , to imagine about crime and want to do that . I — I by all odds recollect that that ’s luck .
Joe : And , you know , the , the — there ’s a expression , I — I forget the exact verbiage of it , but like , the step of a , of a estimable , genial society is how well you treat the unlucky people .
Arturo : Joe , because we ’re drop too much money spy on our own citizen , buddy . Like , you make out , that gets expensive . citizenry need to live who I ’m f***ing texting , military personnel . You have it off ?
Joe : Mm .
Arturo : Um , so when he was with this like - minded , with like - minded people , uh , David vaunt to others about the police scanner that he used to avoid pig , and he said that if they ever came at him , he would blow them away . So in 2002 , on the 4th of July , David Sweat and two accomplices ran their truck through the back paries of a fireworks and gun store . They lam through the computer storage and they loaded up a duffle bag with guns — and also pyrotechnic and gun in the same shop . Is there anything more American than a flagship store of everything that goes , boom , you know ? [ receiving set ad voice ] “ You like guns ? You wish explosions ? Why spend any time anywhere else ? ”
Joe:“When you ’re sustain merriment ? There are pyrotechnic when it get serious . We have weapon . ”
Arturo:“And when you do n’t acknowledge , which — fetch both . ”
Uh , which is kind of incidentally the — the tagline for my quinceñera .
So with their cabbage , David belt along to a tiny Mungo Park three mile away where they were moving the guns from to a 2d car . That ’s when a local sheriff ’s deputy pulled up in his pleasure craft and had him in the headlights . Now the deputy got out of his car to confront the man , but David Sweat just started shooting , serviceman , and he and the other robbers shot the deputy sheriff 15 time , steal his torpedo , and even — this is f***ing approximate . They operate him over with their getaway car .
Joe : So pitiful .
Arturo : Also , coldblooded premeditated slaying . But , and again , not to go on another tan of this , but you know , it’s — I’m , I ’m certain for the family of this deputy , it ’s arduous to understand this , you bed what I ’m say , it ’s knockout to have any sympathy for somebody that just obliterate your f***ing hubby . It ’s crazy times .
Joe : Of course , of row . But — but that ’s just it . It ’s risky for the police too . Like , why the first government intervention of like , trying to handle this very ill individual should not be a sheriff ’s deputy sheriff .
Joe : The — there should have been a genial health professional talking to this kid a decade prior –
Joe:–so that he does n’t wipe out the sheriff ’s deputy . That ’s exactly the job .
Arturo : precisely . So then they made it their escape . But David could not stop tout , and so within a hebdomad , David’s — it always f***ing take place with criminal , uh , with the malefactor that we learn about here .
Joe : What was he blow about ? He ’s like , “ they ’re gon na f***ing public lecture about me on a podcast one daylight . ”
Arturo : That ’s right . Uh , so within a week , David ’s girlfriend told the police , and when they watch him , David plead guilty to the execution for stave off the death penalisation . He received a biography sentence without parole . Now , they commit him to Clinton Correctional Facility in upstate New York , and that ’s where he would meet our next escapee , Richard Matt . His news report ’s a peck like David ’s . You make out , he was another troubled kid who did n’t get the help he needed when he was a kid . He really ran aside from a surrogate home by slip a sawhorse and razz off .
Joe : Wow !
Arturo : At the years of 14 , he even attempt to steal a houseboat . Man , you got ta give this bozo acknowledgment for like , ecological niche pickup vehicles .
Joe : Yeah .
Arturo : He was also well known for a cent farthing leak , you know ? Have you , have you ever own a unicycle or a — a ridden a penny farthing ?
Joe : My wife can ride a unicycle . I ’ve never have one personally , and I ’ve sample to depend on it . It ’s very hard .
Arturo : I’m sure it is . I do n’t think I could ride — also ride one fast enough to care , get away . I would love to see that . That should be our new reality show .
So Richard ’s crimes only got unfit from there , right ? Felony , felony weapon charges , felony ravishment , and peck of misdemeanor harassment charges . It ’s like he just could n’t cope with somebody without assault them , you know ? So when he was caught , he often escaped heavy thrill by plead guilty to lesser crimes .
What ’s the most bother you ever amaze into as a kid ?
Joe : Uh , I — I remember shoplifting a salutation card once at the mall cause there was a moving-picture show on the front that search like my hotdog and I wanted to show it to my mom and dad –
Arturo : Adorable .
Joe:–and I — but I also probably , I mean I had probably enough money to buy the thing , but I was vibrate by the idea of , you know , stealing it . And , uh , what do you know ? I did n’t get caught like , uh , you know , white suburban Judaic nipper in a , in a shopping centre . Like no one punished me or charge me to nurture worry for , uh , shrinkage .
Arturo : Well , in reality singular you should mention that because we have the shop class owner here with us today . come up on out .
Joe : Oh , I ’m sorry !
Arturo : We found him . We f***ing found him , you bozo .
Joe : It ’s still on the icebox at my parent ’ theatre . I can give it back to you .
Arturo : No , no , no , no . He ’s , he does n’t wanna speak right now , but he is very mighty miff .
So the neglectfulness was obvious though , you bed , with — with Richard ’s living . He made his first prison break the easy agency . A guard left his prison house cubicle open and he just kind of f**ing walked out , you be intimate ? I did n’t have a go at it that that ’s sht you could do . He scale this 9 foot –
Joe : Wait , so was the safeguard in on it ?
Arturo : No , no , no . He was just neglectful . You experience ? We also have him here . He’s — he ’s just keeps yield me self-justification .
So this guy scale the 9 metrical foot brick paries and trounce up his arms on the pungent conducting wire in the process , he jump the shipment train to make his escape , but he did n’t go far , though . It only accept him four day for constabulary to overhear up with him at his buddy ’s apartment . So you know , he ’s not the lustrous dude at concealing , but he ’s honest at the first part of dodging — but he lacks a little follow through , which is what we ’ll see later on in the story . So every time he make outta prison , Richard commit ugly assaults . It was a middling vicious bicycle , and this part is nuts , OK ? Once while he was in prison awaiting tryout , he struck a deal with another convict to kill the dude’swife . The dude compensate for Richard ’s bail , but once Richard perplex out , he turned the tables and tell the bureau about the patch .
Arturo : But hold off , it gets — it get crazier . Was n’t this guy rope , uh — married to the successor of the Warner Bros. fortune , overlords ?
Carl : That is correct .
Joe : waitress , wait , wait . The guy that was hiring Richard to wipe out his wife while in prison , that guy , the married woman that he wanted to kill , was the bully - granddaughter of the actual Warner Brothers .
Arturo : Yeah , yeah . That ’s correct . She was an heiress of the Warner Brothers family . Can you believe ?
Joe : Oh , wow .
Arturo : So he got out because he snitch on this guy , but his next offence was the only one that would finally get him locked in maximum surety . Now it started when he take a job with a line of work dealing with almost — get this — almost snuff it meat . So they would buy it cheap and they were reselling it to Modern customers .
Joe : Oy , what ?
Arturo : Oh . Yeah . So it ’s a thing
Joe : about ? N.E.M. ? Nearly exit meat …
Arturo : Nearly , yeah .
Joe : I’m in the N.E.M. Space .
Arturo : It was a keto , it was the old keto version . So have you ever had any sketchy jobs ?
Joe : I mean , I ’m an histrion , so it is kind of a unelaborated line of work .
Arturo : I hear you . Um , so Richard made his expired meat job even more sketchy . He started slip the heart , smuggle over the border into Canada for cash that he would then take to strip clubs , right ? So who ’s buying all this f***ing go meat , by the way of life . I do n’t want to live . So after –
Joe : Not the sprigger .
Arturo : No , yeah , not the strippers . I hope . After only a few week , the boss catch him and fired Richard . Now , unfortunately for the hirer , Richard had overheard him make a comment one fourth dimension about 100 grand that he had bury in the cellar . So Richard think it was genuine and he wanted that money . So he arrive a friend and the two of them undulate up on the core bargainer at his planetary house . They thrum him up , they overeat him into the trunk of Richard ’s elevator car and they labor around for hours stopping to question and scramble the guy . They never learned anything from him so Richard finally just kill him , but here ’s the most sick part –
Joe : Whoa . Really ?
Arturo : Yeah , here ’s the most grim part : Richard cut him up into pieces and dumped him in a river .
Joe : Oh my goodness .
Arturo : Yeah … So he went to Mexico , but like David Sweat , he just could n’t keep quiet . He go berserk and kill another man in a bar .
Joe : Jeez .
Arturo : Richard did nine yr in a Mexican prison house before he got shipped back to the United States . Also how bad do you have to be for the Mexican pokey to be like , “ no , cabrón . You live what ? I , you , we ca n’t have — no , no , you could have him . This is too lousy for us . No , like I do n’t wish the vibe . I do n’t like – ” You bed what I ’m say ? Also speak –
Joe:“Don’t give him to us ! Send them back down there ! ”
Arturo:“No . We had him . No , this guy just keep pissing on us . I do n’t like it . He keeps selling us pop off nub . Where does he get from ? Where does he get , you know – ”
Joe:“You’re gon na take him and you ’re gon na pay for him . ”
Arturo:“Oh goddamn it . Fine . ” Uh , speaking of Mexico , our consultation might not know that you speak Spanish , Joe .
Joe : Yo entiendo mas que puedo hablar , no es muy bueno en español .
Arturo : Uh , he just affront me and my whole category , for our non - Spanish utterer . And I do take offense — wait , sorry , uh , just chop-chop : Spanish , French ?
Joe : French should be — French well than Spanish .
Arturo : OK . Spanish , French , and English .
Joe : Yeah , yeah .
Arturo : That ’s telling , man . When are we begin with Dutch ? You and I just wish , just throwing it out there . On the weekends , we can learn it in a twelvemonth , will be great for –
Joe : permit ’s do Chinese .
Arturo : That , oh my God , I would have it off to .
Joe : Why , why not ?
Arturo : I would get laid to [ learn ] Japanese that I would really , really love .
Arturo : Back in the States , uh — they have Richard back with him . And Richard last stood trial for murdering the heart political boss . And this time they really try on not to let him escape . So they put him in a stun belt and even posted sniper on the roof of the courthouse .
Joe : A what ?
Arturo : A stun swath ?
Joe : What is that ?
Arturo : I’m guess it ’s like a stun collar for dog , but like you just , you just have it around your body — torso ?
Joe : You mean like what — while he was in court or while he was — he was sitting there in a , in a swath and someone ’s got a button when they can shock him ?
Arturo : I’m cerebrate while they ’re enchant , is my guess , but let me get my lord on this . What do we mean by a stun belted ammunition , you guys ?
Carl : Joe is correct .
Arturo : He was sitting in the court and somebody has a button .
Carl : Yes .
Arturo : F * * * !
Joe : Whoa , that ’s … wow .
Arturo : OK . Uh , well .
Joe : Sounds , sounds like a , a unspoilt , fair trial if you ’re , if –
Arturo : So at the trial run — but he was easy convicted and they sent him to Clinton Correctional Facility and that ’s where he suffer David . And the two of them begin planning their great escape .
CHAPTER 3: Honor Block
Arturo : Now we ’re in 2008 , when David Sweat and Richard Matt are dish up their respective prison condemnation in Clinton Correctional Facility . So David had been there for eight twelvemonth and Richard was a new arriver . But Richard even came with a new byname : Hacksaw .
I wanna recollect that David — yeah — I want to think that David was exceedingly jealous of what a hard fanny nickname that he wanted — he want to make up one up for himself , but had never catch on , you screw , like , “ Call me Lion Eater . ” “ No , dismal dude , [ you ’re ] just kind of , David . ”
Joe : Hacksaw and David , David and Hacksaw . That ’s our show .
Arturo : That ’s right . That ’s it . That ’s it . He just never f***ing — he ’s like , “ We can call you stew . ” Uh — you ever have a soubriquet , Joe ?
Joe : I was doing a movie about soldiers and we all were doing a imitation bootcamp , which is about the — you know , that ’s as difficult hind end as I get , a simulated bootcamp . It was like Crazy Ass Jan ’cuz he is — is sort of a brainsick person . Smoking Ass Ryan ’cuz he smokes a passel . And , um , it was — uh , they called me “ Regular Joe ” because they were all — they were all too prissy to sht in the outhouse , and they would n’t sht . And I — I do n’t care . Like I ’ll go take sht — I’m not gon na not take a sht every mean solar day like …
Arturo : When Joe has to go , we just , you know , on exercise set , I noticed this . We just have to face away . We just — if Joe has to go , this man will not take the air two feet . He will just f***ing cliff trow .
Joe : Stay unconstipated , man . Eat a caboodle of vegetables . I ’m gon na go sh*t in the jakes . Come on . So I was steady Joe .
Arturo : There you go .
Joe : And that name kind of stuck . Some citizenry still call me steady Joe .
Arturo : That ’s a dependable one . Um , so let me tell you about the — let me tell you about this prison house that they were in , right ? So as — and I wanna control in with you . This is — how are you feeling ? This is — it ’s a hard story to hear , is n’t it ?
Joe : It is voiceless for me . I , uh , I have to admit , I — I have a hard time enjoying the horrendous misfortunes of these , um , terribly tragically ill hoi polloi and the — the pain they caused . But I — I’ve incline the , the moral deliberation in my read/write head as we were doing this . And at that — that ’s precisely where I net out . It was like , OK , well if we can make a podcast where we ’re , yes , we ’re telling a story that ’s crazy to hear , but we ’re also actually breaking it down and trying to understand what are the larger problem in our world that are — that are lead to these things , that sounds like a fair way in to have some crucial conversations . So I’m — I’m down , I ’m in full support to be become through this chronicle and — and have this conversation .
Arturo : Awesome , man , give thanks you . Yeah , I agree . And I think it helps to do it with some linguistic context , proper ? So , let ’s go back a little bit and get into the account of the prison house they were in . So the prison house was scream Clinton Correctional Facility and was originally built by labor gangs of prisoners in the 1800s . The cold winters leave the prison its nickname : Little Siberia .
Joe : Labor gangs . Wow . Sorry . I just — labor crew . It , it’s — it ’s an important affair to observe the , the American prison system is — there ’s , there ’s not even a dotted crease between the American prison organization and the American slavery industriousness from back in the day .
Arturo : Not even a specked line .
Joe : Like , it ’s not even a — it ’s a solid line . It ’s not even a very long line . It was like , as soon as bondage was outlawed in whatever it was , 1865 , very , very short thereafter , they set about figuring out , OK , well then how are we pass to get all this work done ? And prisoners , uh , was incisively one of the biggest answers and it ’s still take place today .
Arturo : And for our listeners , if you wanna hear more about it , Ava DuVernay did a corking infotainment , The 13th , which you could find on Netflix which was incredibly potent .
Arturo : Um , so , you know , imagine the stipulation of any place when it gets equate to a fing Soviet gulag , like Little Siberia , too . You know what I ’m read ? That ’s when you ’re really fing up . So the guard towers and the 60 - foot concrete walls eclipse the border streets . Now in 2008 , the people shut up up there were put to forge in an set up situation . They were making furniture , wearing apparel , license plates , and road signs in an industrial building inside the prison house walls . It ’s like a f***ed up Etsy shop . You bonk what I ’m suppose ? Like it ’s just , like , wrong .
Arturo : So most people in this — and this is another thing , right ? Most people in the surrounding townsfolk , call Dannemora , run jobs in the prison . They were guards . Clerks , cook , and supervisors for the prison manual laborer . For instance , take Tilly — and she ’s gon na be essential to our floor . She and her husband both knead in the prison and Tilly had been a supervisor since 2008 . She ran the show in the tailoring shop , and that ’s where she encounter David and Richard .
So , there are conflicting story about what occur in the seamster workshop , including whether the sexual acts were consensual . Even Tilly ’s own account has shift over clip — what she distinguish state investigator differs from the account that she ’s given to the insistence . It ’s possible that Tilly was herself the dupe of intimate violence and compulsion and we just need to make it clean-cut for our listener , there are multiple sides to this write up and the facts are not 100 pct clear .
At first , maybe it seemed like there was n’t much to interest about . After all , David and Richard lived in Cell Block A , which was have intercourse as the pureness block . So inside Clinton Correctional , Richard and David had taken up picture and built themselves a good reputation . ’Cause if chronicle has learn us anything , it ’s that mass who take a painting class never do anything wrong . Ever . Ever .
So in the tailor shop class where they worked , David had also become really good at sewing and was even made shop class teacher . Now , other actor startle noticing that Tilly had made friends with David . She start bring him contraband treat , and at first it was things like homemade brownies or cookies . But once , Tilly even brought him a Big Mac from a McDonald ’s … that was almost an hour away from prison .
Arturo : That is f***ing loyalty , dude . My girlfriend and I , like , reason about who ’s gon na exit the lights out like four feet away from our bed .
Joe : Yeah . OK . I was gon na say , time of day - long Big Mac run . That ’s not just brother .
Arturo : That ’s not friendship . No , no , no , no . And so finally the violations were too obvious , you know , an anonymous alphabetic character to the prison administrators start out David kicked out of the tailoring shop , and that ’s when Tilly got close to David ’s prison house booster Richard — like very , very closemouthed .
Arturo : As we noted sooner , there are some differ accounts here about whether or not their relationship became intimate . By the spring of 2015 , the state investigating reports that it was Tilly and Richard who were go to the empty way for sex . Tilly would also give Richard intimate notes to pass along to David , include nude exposure of herself . afterwards , in at least one interview , Tilly said that she was distressed about her guard and her husband ’s life , but we ’ll come back to that , all right ?
Joe : OK , so she’s — she ’s married during this ?
Arturo : She ’s matrimonial to — to a guy wire that do work at the prison .
Arturo : So , because despite all of this special treatment inside the prison , Richard and David were determined to get out .
CHAPTER 4: Hamburger Helper
Arturo : So take heed , once David and Richard had Tilly tangle up in the most bizarre throuple ever , they had to plan to use her as a means for safety valve . Richard and Tilly begin to swop . At first it was just small things , you know , paint brushes for their art , material like that . But then it startle to get a little more elaborate — he said he needed some glasses with built - in flashlight , cause it would aid him paint at nighttime . He then said he demand some hacksaw blades . What do you imagine she thought he require this for ?
Joe : He was just overjealous of the nickname , he needed to have his own hacksaw .
Arturo : David ’s like “ I wanna be Hacksaw , too . ” You know , “ I ’m well-worn of being Sweaty Sweat . I ’m Sweaty Dave . ” So Tilly convey in the blades on the Q.T. and stashed them at Richard ’s workstation in the tailoring store . Then to get them out of his cell , Richard taped them to his body and on the walk — and this is important — on the base on balls back to the tailoring shop , the guard let him go around the metal detector , proper ? So this was laurels block , after all — what cause did he have to be suspicious of Richard ? But this just seems like gross disregard or he was in on it , right ?
Joe : Yeah . Why ? I mean , if there ’s a metal sensing element there , what ’s the point .
Arturo : Why do n’t you just go f***ing through it ? Yeah .
So once he was back in his prison cell , Richard take place one-half of the blades to David next door , and the two men pass away to oeuvre . They started to slowly switch off the steel wall of their cells . They would wait until the even , when other inmates from other blocks were allowed to use the common diversion area . Now , Richard and David would hang back and they all say — they always state they were paint or something like that . So dark by night , inch by inch , the men cut holes into the back wall . They covered the holes with their own painting and that ’s when the program really set about .
Joe : Hold on . They ’re cut a paries . They ’re , they ’re cut down a jam in a wall . The bulwark is made of — how do you … how do you cut a hole in a wall , even if you have a metal saw ? How do you even do that ?
Arturo : With a flock of patience , Joe .
Joe : Yeah , I guess . Jeez .
Arturo : No , no , no . Uh oh . Overlords , was this a — well , they were hacking at the concrete ? Was it …
Joe : Was it the bar ? No , they could n’t do it at the bars . That ’d be seeable , right ?
Arturo : It was n’t the bar .
Carl : Yes , their cellphone paries were made of brand .
Arturo : Wow . Interesting .
Joe : And you could do that with a hacksaw ?
Carl : With a hack saw steel , yes .
Ben : And to you ’re good , patience . Yes , absolutely .
Arturo : Patience , and — yeah .
Joe : Ok . So they just — this is a retentive - term project .
Arturo : You get laid , a flock of — when you hear about a tidy sum of these escape stories , there is this sort of good sense of shame of like , man , if — like some of these require a lot of mental fortitude and preparation and forbearance and severe study .
Joe : Right .
Arturo : And you may just imagine what people under different circumstances with more help might have been able-bodied to do had they applied this to something else .
Joe : Yep , that ’s exactly ripe . That ’s exact — yeah . It ’s entrepreneurial to do , to pull all that sh*t off and take the opening and like , plan in advance .
Arturo : Yeah . Yeah . A hundred percent .
So behind the back walls , there was a whole nest of pipes and conduits for plumbery and electrical energy that went to every electric cell . And along with them there were catwalks to — that spread through the prison to allow for criminal maintenance . David was capable to then take the air all the style from honor block through the prison washing , and even under the next cell block . But you know , the whole prison house was like a maze . So now that they were outside of their cells , David and Richard ask to find a path , uh , all the way outta prison and they needed to do it at nighttime . Now , do you think what tool might do in utile ?
Joe : Uh , the — the ice with the light .
Arturo : Yes , there you go .
So they were using the — the flashlight glasses they have from Tilly . Then Richard and David started planning all , uh , planning [ a ] way through . They slow select cement walls and alloy grate for their escape valve . And then night by night , they spent fourth dimension cutting holes into each one . So over meter , they carved the path through the various building out , uh , toward the outer wall .
Tilly continued to pass them more and more tools and eventually they gave up all guise . They — they just wanted arduous , heavy duty oeuvre gloves , concrete drill beats , chisels , more hacksaw blade and all kind of stuff .
Joe : And no one ’s remark this ? Is everyone like — Tilly ’s rooting for them to get out , which is a little puzzling cause it seems like she ’s –
Joe:–I do n’t recognize , have a positive experience with them being in slammer . So why does she need them to be out ?
Arturo : But maybe when they ’re out of jail , they can remain this on the run . Right ?
Joe : I infer .
Arturo : Maybe that ’s a –
Joe : She think they ’re gon na stick around .
Arturo : I think so . I mean , by this spot , if you ’re so psychologically addicted to somebody , which is what it sound like , veracious ? Then it ’s just sorta …
Joe : Yeah , it ’s true . They ’re belike pressuring her . Yeah , you ’re right .
Arturo : And so Tilly had a unique way to get them inside , correct ? At rest home , she packed the tools inside blocks of ground beef and put them into the freezer , and the next cockcrow –
Joe : Wait , really , squawk comes back into this taradiddle ? ? !
Joe : Was it nearly buy the farm bitch ?
Joe:“It ’s what ’s for dinner . ”
Arturo : “ icky beef . What ’s for dinner . ”
So she — the next cockcrow , she carried the frozen meat into the sartor shop . Then she arranged for a prison house guard to return the pissed meat to Richard ’s cell . It expire … that ’s , uh — she get another prison house sentry go to deliver the meat , that ’s f***ed up . So it kick the bucket without a hitch . So next clip they put in an order for tools , she did the accurate same thing . Now , finally Richard and David found a steam piping system , and that connected to a power plant outside the prison wall . So David cut a hole in the side of a pipe that was large enough for serviceman to cower in . And at last they had a absolved path to the outside .
CHAPTER 5: The Escape
Arturo : The final plan for the escape was pull up like this : Richard and David would leave lifespan - sized dummies in their beds , made from bundles of old apparel , so the prison guards would n’t remark they were overlook .
Joe : It ’s like Ferris Bueller .
Arturo : And they loved ’ 80s coming - of - age flick . Step two , with a guitar case full of supply , they would climb through the hosepipe in the back of their cells and onto the catwalk and come after the track through the wall and burrow that led to the exterior of the prison walls . They would then crawl through a manhole up to a nearby street and flee the prison . pace three : This is f***ed up . Tilly would dose her hubby with narcotic that Richard had been prescribed by the prison doctor . That way he would n’t notice when she left in the motorcar to pick up Richard and David .
Joe : Dang !
Arturo : dance step four . When the two escapees hop into Tilly ’s auto , she would drive them home , then the pair of them would murder her husband . The three of them would then collect the life policy policy and ride decent off into the sundown .
Joe : Good Lord .
Arturo : Wait , was n’t that the whole f***ing reason that she was helping them because she was afraid they might ache her married man ? Like doesn’t — that just doesn’t — you have it off what I ’m saying ?
Joe : Oh yeah . You did say that she was scared for the condom of her husband .
Arturo : It just seems like an excuse . I imagine she was just all in . Also , like , the only — like how long do they think it take to charge an insurance policy claim ? Like how were they just gon na like hold back inside the f***ing house for money for month , you know ?
Joe : And it — I guess then they have to make the murder take care like — they ca n’t cut ‘ em up and cast ‘ em in the river . Uh , they have to do something else passably knavish if they ’re gon na get the life insurance money .
Arturo : It ’s so macabre . Am I saying that word correctly ? My — uh , I do n’t know . Macarb ?
Joe : There is no correct way to say that word
Arturo : OK . Macab - rey . It is improbably sick .
Joe : That was the most right I ’ve actually ever hear that word pronounced .
Arturo : So Richard and David packed their guitar cases with the necessities , pepperoni sticks , toilet paper , and electric shaver , and 40 granola bar because they were learn their figure . I ’m just kidding . I do n’t know why the 40 granola bars .
Joe : An electric shaver ? They spent blank space on a shaver ?
Arturo : Also — also I would ’ve not think of lavatory report , but it makes a deal of sense .
Joe : That sounds more necessary than the nestling .
Arturo : I would anticipate Regular Joe to opine that up , you have sex , because Regular Joe would take a sh*t in the woods . I just would n’t have thought of it . Also , an electric electric razor possibly to alter their looking . That would make more sense .
Joe : Ah , OK . OK .
Arturo : So Tilly even brought them in a compass , the New York state pages of an atlas and lots of sinister capsicum pepper plant . They were hoping to employ the black pepper to keep hound off their scent , which I have to take , it ’s pretty f***ing clever .
Joe : Does that work ?
Arturo : I do n’t know if it work out or not . Did it put to work ?
Joe : I’m call for as if I — I necessitate to keep dog off my perfume sometime .
Arturo : No , no , no . So it ’s so shady . Like , every other one you ’re like , “ But what was the success charge per unit for that ? ” So Richard gave — so Richard give Tilly the narcotic he had save up and the tunnels were staring and everything was quick to go . So on the night of June 5 , 2015 , Richard and David left their prison cellular phone for the last time . As they made their way through their escape road , they left greenback at the office that had been unmanageable to master . At a tube between B block and C cylinder block , they left a picture of an alien and a little tagline that allege , “ Are you trying me , punk ? ” I think they should have workshopped that tagline , to be honest .
Joe : I ca n’t tell if you ’re joking . Is — is that — did they really do that ?
Arturo : No , I ’m not jest , I ’m not joking . Yeah , a hundred pct .
Joe : Wow . Yeah . So they ’re suffer fun doing this .
Arturo : They’re having fun . Yeah . Also , like , I do n’t pick you , dude . Like most people ’s brain-teaser with me is that they never have it off when I ’m fing serious , you have it off ? So I would make a terrible MD . I ’m like , “ no , ma’am , you really have to go now . ” They ’re like , “ this fing bozo . ”
At the final out bulwark where they had spend 30 Nox sawing through the steam pipe , their notes said , “ have a nice day . ”
Arturo : Yeah . So then Richard and David got to the manhole book binding , and this was it . They were free , but—[manhole cover sound]—thank you for that manhole masking audio …
Joe : Oh , we ’re out-of-door .
Arturo : Yeah . But when they come out out into the street , there was no one there . Turns out that Tilly , the accomplice and their getaway driver have dusty feet . She did n’t sense so positive in the program after all . At the last 2nd something about drugging her husband and escape off with these murderers just –
Joe : And killing him . That was part of the plan too , correct ?
Arturo : Yeah , it just did n’t posture right .
Joe : Good for Tilly .
Arturo : Yeah . rather of hitting her husband with a roofie , Tilly had a panic attack at 9:00 p.m. Her husband drive her to the infirmary where she was admitted for watching . later on , she would say that she never intended to drug and vote down her husband . It just carry her this longsighted to finally give up the plan . Hooo . That was really at the 11th hour there , Tilly . But that left these two escapee standing in the center of the street at midnight with no number one wood and no golden life indemnity policy on their side for their dumb plan . So they decided to haul ass into the nearby forest of Little Siberia . And this is where we do full circle , OK ? Once they were out into the woods , they started breaking into run cabins . call up the moonshine and weed and all that stuff ?
Joe : Oh , yeah .
Arturo : Yeah . At one cabin they even constitute a transistor radio , which was lucky for them , because the copper started a huge manhunt . It was the U.S. Marshals , it was Forest Rangers , it was everybody . mete patrol , whirlybird . The whole thing , correct ? And that ’s where the two escapees split . Now David wanted to execute for the border , but Richard was just done caring . So alternatively of heading back into the forest , he actually took a shotgun down to the road , and start scud at eliminate machine , humankind ! He hit a family unit camper van , and they called in the location , right ?
Joe : Oh , God .
Arturo : Yeah , wildly f***ed up . But that also meant that the cops roll in the hay exactly where he was . So they close in , and they actually down him before he had a fortune to dash at them too .
As for David , he did seek to make a break for it . But he was captivate on the road to Canada before he could escape across the border .
Joe : He survived ?
Arturo : Yeah — so he had been shot , but he hold up . So he was brought in , and he told the story of his safety valve in great contingent to the investigators , to the police , and to the prison official , resulting in over 500 page of interview transcripts . He even compared their outflow toShawshank Redemption , but he said : “ Shawshank ai n’t fix sh*t on me . ”
Chapter 6: Inspector General
Arturo : So after such a crazy escape , there was a scuffle to figure out how it had all happen . Investigators interviewed 170 multitude to help piece together the teaser . According to their report , there were many points of failure .
Joe : Can I just intermit and be the grind for a endorsement ? One more time ? If we ’re , if we — if we ’re talking about , “ oh , hey , we do n’t have money to pay for mental wellness treatment of kids , that ’s too expensive . How are we gon na spend that money ? ” OK . Cut to now X age later , the small fry did n’t get genial health handling and now how expensive do you cogitate it is for them to be conducting this investigation with , how many mass did you say they ’re interviewing ?
Arturo : One hundred and seventy mass .
Joe : That , I mean — I , I do n’t know what the bit is , but that ’s so expensive now that they ’re , they ’re having to clean house up this mess that –
Arturo : So much manpower , so expensive , so careful .
Joe : It , it ’s the — it ’s the old thing of like , if you do n’t want to , you cognize , pass a lot of money on your doctor ’s bills , just like , eat intelligent . And like if we just spent some money up front on taking care of people who are mentally inauspicious , specially , like you said , kid , I thought that was a really important point you made — maybe we would n’t be spending the tremendous budget it must have taken to clean up this f***ing mess of this gargantuan disaster .
Arturo : To take mass to tribunal , to accuse citizenry , to , to — to interview people and then to put him back into prison house , right ?
Joe : The pragmatic cold , hard , like , dollar sign and cents of it would in reality make so much more sense if we were helping people earlier or else of essay to incarcerate and punish and sh*t after .
Arturo : A hundred percentage and it ’s such a potent note to end on . My friend , that ’s our story . And I go for the takeaway for our hearing is that there is such a swelled conversation here about not just the prison house system , but like , how … You get it on , it ’s just really easy to wash our hand [ of ] masses that are just , that we just see as , uh , the dejected ones from society . But it ’s just so important . And also , listen , mankind , this is a great credit to you . I got ta tell you before we , we have to permit you go , uh , we ’re firing you , evidently . I do n’t , I did n’t know we had take you –
Joe : F * * * !
Arturo:–but you are so well versed in , in — in the business of empathy . You understand ? You understand what I mean ? And I reckon that ’s a , a braggart credit entry to you , piece . And I suppose , uh , we require more people like you in a place , in positions of magnate , gentleman . And so when you , uh , operate for president , I would care to put myself up for vice chairman ! Let ’s do it !
Joe : Yeah , that ’s utter .
Arturo : permit ’s f***ing do it !
Joe : You and me , dude . You prez , I wanna be VP . You ’re Chief Executive .
Arturo : No . All correctly , pal . Much love to you , Joe . We ’ll see you next prison term . give thanks you so much , comrade .
Joe : fuck you , dude . salutary to see you . Thanks everybody . Bye !
Credits
Arturo : Greatest Escapesis a product of iHeartRadio and FilmNation Entertainment , in association with Gilded Audio . Our executive producers are me , Arturo , Alyssa Martino and Milan Popelka from FilmNation Entertainment , Andrew Chugg and Whitney Donaldson from Gilded Audio , and Dylan Fagan from iHeartRadio .
The show is produced and edited by Carl Nellis and Ben Chugg , who are also , severally , our enquiry overlord and euphony overlord . Our associate producer is Tory Smith , who is our other overlord .
Nick Dooley is our technical director . Additional editing by Whitney Donaldson . Special thanks to Alison Cohen , Dan Welsh , Ben Ryzack , Sara Joyner , Nicki Stein , Olivia Canny , and Kelsey Albright .
Hey , thank you so much for listening , and if you ’re enjoy the show , please leave a rating or reassessment . My ma will call you each personally and give thanks you , and we ’ll see you all next week .
